MMR and trivia
Jul. 10th, 2006 03:26 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
zotzThe world continues to go to hell in a handbasket, but on the upside there's a new way to annoy people in pubs, and it's even got a cool name.
I've also been meaning to mention this BBC story. Hear that noise? That's the sound of the international biomedical community taking the antivaccine scare and sodomising its corpse like a Dutch mallard. This interesting page cites papers showing that the intestinal oddities that Andrew Wakefield thought were new and linked to MMR had in fact been seen and commented on well before that vaccine was developed - and seem to be harmless.
MMR should of course not be confused with MRR.
I've also been meaning to mention this BBC story. Hear that noise? That's the sound of the international biomedical community taking the antivaccine scare and sodomising its corpse like a Dutch mallard. This interesting page cites papers showing that the intestinal oddities that Andrew Wakefield thought were new and linked to MMR had in fact been seen and commented on well before that vaccine was developed - and seem to be harmless.
MMR should of course not be confused with MRR.
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no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 02:41 pm (UTC)I really have to remember to use that phrase sometime :-)
no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 02:53 pm (UTC)Pwned by me; when the first lot of Compact Disc jukeboxes appeared in pubs circa 1985 I was able to clear a bar full of cheap suits with Leonard Cohen's Songs From A Room thus leaving myself and my mates in peace.
I do like the idea of "wyatting", though Dondestan if anything is even less listenable than Merzbow; not Robert's finest hour.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 03:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 03:04 pm (UTC)"What we need, and what we have always called for, is a full and open review into the link so we cann establish once and for all what the truth is."
Stupid idiot. She's already had one, she just doesn't like the answer because they disagree with her.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 04:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 05:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 03:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 03:58 pm (UTC)Wonderful imagery.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 04:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 04:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 04:51 pm (UTC)Anyway, apparently it's all an illuminatus conspiracy; the vaccine companies are owned by the illuminai, and they're running some sort of population control program. Why they don't just withdraw the vaccines and control the population by letting people die of measles, or become infertile due to mumps, I don't know.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 05:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 05:42 pm (UTC)It's very patronising to dismiss all worried parents as a bunch of hysterical idiots, incapable of logical thought. Most of the governments counter-campaigning has been every bit as unscientific and scare-tactic based as the other side's. The facts are that relatively very few Western children are seriously affected by measles - which, whilst it may still be desirable to implement herd immunity in order to protect those few likely to be vulnerable to complications or death - is very far from the picture painted by the medical profession.
This is business, not non-profit health care, and as such must be treated with the same level of cynicism and skepticism as any other marketing strategy. It's very convenient for those who benefit to be able to dismiss all fears and accusations as the raving lunacy of uneducated hippies.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 05:47 pm (UTC)In this case, no. The call for further research was fair enough, but there's been an absolute shedload of further research, using study groups of up to hundreds of thousands of children. The concern was noted and an absolutely amazing amount of work has been done to get to the bottom of it.
There's nothing there to be found. Concern is fair enough, but eventually we reach a point where refusal to accept the evidence stops being respectable or even acceptable. We passed it some time ago.
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Date: 2006-07-10 05:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 07:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 10:34 pm (UTC)Tell me about it. I've been reading more Peter Duesberg today. Why can't we just let him inject himself with HIV, and maybe, just maybe, he'll learn to shut the fuck up.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 10:42 pm (UTC)Now, that's just masochism.
I was wondering while reading the investigative journo's page whether the Sunday Times that was keen to publish his work exposing irregularities in Wakefield's research was the same Sunday Times which spent several years repeating Duesberg's line about HIV not causing AIDS. Do you think they've ever been seen in the same room together?
no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 07:26 pm (UTC)How bloody condescending is that? If parents are bothered enough to have specific concerns about MMR (rather than being blanket anti-immunisation freaks), chances are they can commit to all those extra appointments.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 07:35 pm (UTC)The reason for triple (and in future quad and more) vaccination is that it increases the amount of protection that children get in practice. It also, of course, results in them having fewer unpleasant injections and vaccination scars.
Anyway, I'm not in any mood to meet people halfway on this. We tried that - Wakefield's paper wasn't very convincing, but many teams went off and like good little scientists spent months or years beavering away to find out whether there was anything in it, and it's made absolutely fuck-all difference. Those who want to believe there's a probalem still do, and they're going to go on doing it come hell, high water, or better information. The public money that was spent on the research was, essentially, wasted. I don't think I'd bother arguing in future that research be done simply because the public is concerned, because clearly the public aren't interested in the results.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 08:39 pm (UTC)I'd personally rather have the vaccinations one at a time, but then I know that my immune system is pretty flaky (thanks to M.E.) and so swamping it with several innoculations at a time is probably unwise. I already had M.E. when I got my B.C.G., and it on its own made me dizzy and light-headed for days. I dread to think how ill I'd have been if I'd had two or more innoculations at once.
I think that it makes sense to give parents a choice between their child getting one shot or three, even if the child is perfectly healthy, if the consequence of giving them no choice is that the child gets no shots at all.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 08:47 pm (UTC)The day you're born you meet thousands of new antigens, and thousands more the next, and so on. They're no evidence that the immune system can be "swamped". The best opinion I've heard was from an immonolgist who estimated that even small children could probably safely react to about 100 000 new antigens at one time.
if the consequence of giving them no choice is that the child gets no shots at all.
In general, that isn't the consequence. The effect of three separate jabs is more often that at least one is missed. This is in practice, not in some thought experiment.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 09:33 pm (UTC)This is why breastfeeding is so important (and that's before one considers the problems caused by the infant's immune system being exposed to the cow's milk proteins in formula and the wheat proteins in rusk biscuits).
They're no evidence that the immune system can be "swamped".
M.E. is still poorly understood, but one proposed theory is that it is an immune system disorder that is caused by an infection occuring at the same time as physical weakness. I understand that to mean that swamping of the immune system could be possible, and that, if it were, M.E. would be the consequence of that swamping. M.E. is rare in children compared to adults, but even so, if I had a child and were taking it for immunisation, having had M.E. myself and being concerned that the child could inherit a tendancy to develop M.E. from me, I would be inclined to insist upon three jabs instead of one. My stance is likely to stay this way until I see conclusive evidence that I am wrong; if I waited for formal study results to be published before believing that an illness might exist, I'd still be eating wheat and suffering every day.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 10:04 pm (UTC)It doesn't shield you from much - I would guess at a large majority being bacterial and viral.
one proposed theory is that it is an immune system disorder
It's possible, but it wouldn't be the same thing.
My stance is likely to stay this way until I see conclusive evidence that I am wrong
In which case you'd be accepting a definite risk, one with known adverse consequences for someone else, to avoid a risk we don't know for sure to definitely exist. Is this wise?
In any case, vaccines and multiple vaccines have been around long enough for any association to become apparent. MMR was first introduced in the States in the late seventies. It would be painfully obvious by now that the few percent who didn't get it had a different disease profile from those who did.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 07:55 pm (UTC)Possibly not, and there was a time when I would have dismissed the JABS campaigners as ignorant scaremongers. However, I know have a lot more sympathy with their POV because of recent developments with my own health. According to the flour and grain industry, I am at present definitely risking malnutrition to avoid symptoms of a disease (wheat intolerance) that is not proven to exist and that many nutritional professionals apparently disbelieve in. Personally, I prefer to listen to my body on this one, even though that defies all scientific good practice, especially as the people telling me that my symptoms are psychosomatic† have a vested interest in me continuing to buy the products that I believe that I am intolerant too.
In the case of both MMR and wheat intolerance, the people who stand to gain from selling the relevant product are claiming that their product is safe and citing scientific research (the results of which can be twisted to say what you want them to say — the Beeching Inquiry being a well-known example of numbers being manipulated to make branch railways look far less profitable than they were) to support their case, whilst other people who have nothing to gain whatsoever are alleging a risk, which of course they cannot fund research into due to having no money. Forgive me if I am skeptical of the claims made by the first group of people.
† Even on the three occasions when I have only found out that I have eaten wheat after the symptoms have begun to present and I have gone through the bin for the labels and then sworn loudly. I am BTW willing to be subjected to double-blind testing, if you know of any sciencey-types who would be willing to feed me undisclosed grain products for two weeks.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 08:04 pm (UTC)is not proven to exist
Well, that's not quite the same, because there isn't anything in wheat that you can't get elsewhere. It's just a matter of compensating.
Anyway, this is presumably an intolerance unrelated to Coeliac disease?
the people who stand to gain from selling the relevant product are claiming that their product is safe and citing scientific research (the results of which can be twisted to say what you want them to say
The people doing the research aren't making any money off Merck. They do, however, stand very firmly behind their results. If you're going to follow the money, remember who is and who isn't getting any of it.
the Beeching Inquiry
Given the lack of commitment from Governments at the time (and for twenty or so years later), the Beeching cuts might very well be the only way British Rail survived.
Forgive me if I am skeptical of the claims made by the first group of
people
You're also being sceptical of people you claim to be in the first group, who actually aren't.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 09:41 pm (UTC)I don't make the antibodies associated with cœliac disease, so my GP and I presume that it is unrelated. It might have something to do with the vast numbers of Crohn's Disease sufferers amongst my maternal grandmother's family, or with the vast number of allergy (asthma, eczema, tomatos, bee stings, nuts) sufferers amongst same†.
If you're going to follow the money, remember who is and who isn't getting any of it.
Fair point; this is not the Seroxat scandal, and I should check up on funding sources first and type second.
Beeching cuts might very well be the only way British Rail survived.
That doesn't make right the statistical fiddles required for Beeching to reach the conclusions that he did.
† Although, according to an article from the Lancet, Crohn's is likely to be caused by a weak immune response, and it's common knowledge that allergies are caused by a defective immune response. I can see two dots just begging to be joined here.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-15 03:57 pm (UTC)It could be another atopic complaint, yes.
That doesn't make right the statistical fiddles required for Beeching
to reach the conclusions that he did.
I've heard a great many criticisms of Beeching and his plan, but I've never heard it said that his treatment was dishonest. What has changed since them is that we now accept that the railways run at a loss because of the wider benefit. As far as I know, this was not appreciated at that time.
Although, according to an article from the Lancet, Crohn's is likely to be caused by a weak immune response, and it's common knowledge that allergies are caused by a defective immune response. I can see two dots just begging to be joined here.
There are other ways to be defective. In fact, with such a complex system, there are a great many other ways to be defective.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-11 12:19 am (UTC)It would have been, but instead large amounts of public money have been spent on independent research which shows those fears and accusations are baseless.
It's also very dangerous for groups like JABS to keep campaigning in the face of the evidence. The effects of this debacle are not confined to "The West", where "very few" children are at serious risk, because it is reported worldwide. Developing countries, where deaths and serious complications from measles are already far more common, are reporting reduced uptake of the vaccinations, because of concern caused by anti-vaccination websites.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 05:25 pm (UTC)This is from someone who has seen measles kill.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-10 05:56 pm (UTC)An annoying response from JABS: "A full and open review into the link", immediately presupposing that there is a link, and how much more full and open do you want? Oh, of course, it's all a conspiracy of the global medical mafia. And as for "the study still did not prove there was not a link", well, really. It doesn't prove that there isn't a link between autism and sun-dried tomatoes, so what? Bah!
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Date: 2006-07-10 07:11 pm (UTC)It'd have been MDC's "Millions of Dead Cops" when I used to read it, from what I remember. They always were chauvinists for the West coast punk scene - East coast bands didn't get nearly as sympathetic treatment.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-11 07:39 pm (UTC)Coil vs Venetian Snares. You're right, though. A bit obscure.
No, I don't actually have Glider.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-12 02:54 pm (UTC)I'm quite envious of the Coil/VS remixes. There is apparently a new Coil album, recorded before Balance's unfortunate and ironic death. I haven't heard anything else about it.
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Date: 2006-07-11 08:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-11 11:25 pm (UTC)Well, yes. Indeed so.
Gosh. Obviously I'm quite opposed and would happily do what in general I could. I'm not sure about loaded guns. I suppose there's no chance it was just a really threatening water pistol?
no subject
Date: 2006-07-15 03:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-15 03:45 pm (UTC)Perhaps the shotgun was only loaded with a water balloon. Although I'm told a candle coming out of one of those makes quite a mess.